How do I deal with “crossing resistances”?












5














I'm doing some physics homework calculating the total resistance between points A and B and while some circuits are comprehensible, there are two that I can't understand how they work at all.



So, it is my pleasure to present to you these two monstrosities:



The divided squareThe hellborn triangles of death



How do I approach the crossing resistances in each one? Here's where I am as of writing this post:



The divided square:




  • The two 10k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The 20k and 9k resistances are parallel to each other

  • I don't know what to do with the 5k one


The hellborn triangles of death:




  • The first and last pair of 5k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The bottom center 5k resistance is in series with the previous two couples

  • I don't know what to do with the 15k ones


So, long story short, how should I handle these situations when the resistances are connected by both sides and the circuit looks like the voltage should converge inside them and start burning?










share|cite|improve this question









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  • 2




    Have you tried redrawing the diagrams? You'd be surprised how helpful it can be to draw them in the way your brain wants to see them :)
    – N. Steinle
    2 hours ago










  • Since you've accepted an answer, I'll just leave this comment for completeness: there are no resistor pairs in series or in parallel in either network. This is why students find both networks perplexing at first.
    – Hal Hollis
    15 mins ago
















5














I'm doing some physics homework calculating the total resistance between points A and B and while some circuits are comprehensible, there are two that I can't understand how they work at all.



So, it is my pleasure to present to you these two monstrosities:



The divided squareThe hellborn triangles of death



How do I approach the crossing resistances in each one? Here's where I am as of writing this post:



The divided square:




  • The two 10k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The 20k and 9k resistances are parallel to each other

  • I don't know what to do with the 5k one


The hellborn triangles of death:




  • The first and last pair of 5k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The bottom center 5k resistance is in series with the previous two couples

  • I don't know what to do with the 15k ones


So, long story short, how should I handle these situations when the resistances are connected by both sides and the circuit looks like the voltage should converge inside them and start burning?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 2




    Have you tried redrawing the diagrams? You'd be surprised how helpful it can be to draw them in the way your brain wants to see them :)
    – N. Steinle
    2 hours ago










  • Since you've accepted an answer, I'll just leave this comment for completeness: there are no resistor pairs in series or in parallel in either network. This is why students find both networks perplexing at first.
    – Hal Hollis
    15 mins ago














5












5








5


1





I'm doing some physics homework calculating the total resistance between points A and B and while some circuits are comprehensible, there are two that I can't understand how they work at all.



So, it is my pleasure to present to you these two monstrosities:



The divided squareThe hellborn triangles of death



How do I approach the crossing resistances in each one? Here's where I am as of writing this post:



The divided square:




  • The two 10k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The 20k and 9k resistances are parallel to each other

  • I don't know what to do with the 5k one


The hellborn triangles of death:




  • The first and last pair of 5k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The bottom center 5k resistance is in series with the previous two couples

  • I don't know what to do with the 15k ones


So, long story short, how should I handle these situations when the resistances are connected by both sides and the circuit looks like the voltage should converge inside them and start burning?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











I'm doing some physics homework calculating the total resistance between points A and B and while some circuits are comprehensible, there are two that I can't understand how they work at all.



So, it is my pleasure to present to you these two monstrosities:



The divided squareThe hellborn triangles of death



How do I approach the crossing resistances in each one? Here's where I am as of writing this post:



The divided square:




  • The two 10k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The 20k and 9k resistances are parallel to each other

  • I don't know what to do with the 5k one


The hellborn triangles of death:




  • The first and last pair of 5k resistances are parallel to each other

  • The bottom center 5k resistance is in series with the previous two couples

  • I don't know what to do with the 15k ones


So, long story short, how should I handle these situations when the resistances are connected by both sides and the circuit looks like the voltage should converge inside them and start burning?







homework-and-exercises electric-circuits electrical-resistance






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edited 31 mins ago









David Z

63.2k23136252




63.2k23136252






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asked 2 hours ago









GroctelGroctel

485




485




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  • 2




    Have you tried redrawing the diagrams? You'd be surprised how helpful it can be to draw them in the way your brain wants to see them :)
    – N. Steinle
    2 hours ago










  • Since you've accepted an answer, I'll just leave this comment for completeness: there are no resistor pairs in series or in parallel in either network. This is why students find both networks perplexing at first.
    – Hal Hollis
    15 mins ago














  • 2




    Have you tried redrawing the diagrams? You'd be surprised how helpful it can be to draw them in the way your brain wants to see them :)
    – N. Steinle
    2 hours ago










  • Since you've accepted an answer, I'll just leave this comment for completeness: there are no resistor pairs in series or in parallel in either network. This is why students find both networks perplexing at first.
    – Hal Hollis
    15 mins ago








2




2




Have you tried redrawing the diagrams? You'd be surprised how helpful it can be to draw them in the way your brain wants to see them :)
– N. Steinle
2 hours ago




Have you tried redrawing the diagrams? You'd be surprised how helpful it can be to draw them in the way your brain wants to see them :)
– N. Steinle
2 hours ago












Since you've accepted an answer, I'll just leave this comment for completeness: there are no resistor pairs in series or in parallel in either network. This is why students find both networks perplexing at first.
– Hal Hollis
15 mins ago




Since you've accepted an answer, I'll just leave this comment for completeness: there are no resistor pairs in series or in parallel in either network. This is why students find both networks perplexing at first.
– Hal Hollis
15 mins ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















4














Try then to apply the Y-$Delta$ tranformations! I am glad you found the light! If you cannot carry calculation drop again here a line and i'll try to work more on the answer!






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor




Pietro Oliva is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.


























    3














    For the top one, you can separate out the $9 kOmega$ resistor at the top, since it's in series with the rest. Now you have a graph with four nodes and five edges. You can assign the variables $V_1$ through $V_4$ to the nodes, but WLOG you can consider the top node to be 0 and the bottom to be 1, so that leaves just the left and right voltages. You then have currents $I_1$ through $I_5$ through the edges. You can then start applying the circuit laws to these variables: for each edge, the current is equal to change in voltage divided by the resistance. The net current through each edge is zero (if you take current flowing in to be positive and current flowing out to be negative, that is). You'll then get a bunch of equations, and solving them will give the effective resistances.



    It's probably best to work out what the effective resistances are from basic principles and algebra first, and then try to work through applying Y-Δ to get a sense of how that works.



    Also, any symmetry in the diagram should be preserved in the values. The second circuit has left-right symmetries, so the currents should be symmetrical: the two top resistors should have the same currents as each other, the two outsides diagonal resistors should have the same as each other, and the two inside diagonal should have the same as each other. So you can use just four variables to represent the nine different currents.






    share|cite|improve this answer





























      2














      As Pietro Oliva (is there a way to mention a user?) pointed out, I have to use the Y-Δ transformations to change how the circuit is viewed.



      Thanks for the super fast answer!






      share|cite|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.














      • 1




        I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
        – G. Smith
        2 hours ago








      • 1




        I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
        – Groctel
        2 hours ago






      • 2




        Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
        – G. Smith
        1 hour ago








      • 2




        Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
        – my2cts
        44 mins ago










      • @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
        – David Z
        32 mins ago











      Your Answer





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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      active

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      active

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      4














      Try then to apply the Y-$Delta$ tranformations! I am glad you found the light! If you cannot carry calculation drop again here a line and i'll try to work more on the answer!






      share|cite|improve this answer








      New contributor




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        4














        Try then to apply the Y-$Delta$ tranformations! I am glad you found the light! If you cannot carry calculation drop again here a line and i'll try to work more on the answer!






        share|cite|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Pietro Oliva is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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          4












          4








          4






          Try then to apply the Y-$Delta$ tranformations! I am glad you found the light! If you cannot carry calculation drop again here a line and i'll try to work more on the answer!






          share|cite|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Pietro Oliva is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          Try then to apply the Y-$Delta$ tranformations! I am glad you found the light! If you cannot carry calculation drop again here a line and i'll try to work more on the answer!







          share|cite|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Pietro Oliva is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer






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          answered 2 hours ago









          Pietro OlivaPietro Oliva

          1137




          1137




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              3














              For the top one, you can separate out the $9 kOmega$ resistor at the top, since it's in series with the rest. Now you have a graph with four nodes and five edges. You can assign the variables $V_1$ through $V_4$ to the nodes, but WLOG you can consider the top node to be 0 and the bottom to be 1, so that leaves just the left and right voltages. You then have currents $I_1$ through $I_5$ through the edges. You can then start applying the circuit laws to these variables: for each edge, the current is equal to change in voltage divided by the resistance. The net current through each edge is zero (if you take current flowing in to be positive and current flowing out to be negative, that is). You'll then get a bunch of equations, and solving them will give the effective resistances.



              It's probably best to work out what the effective resistances are from basic principles and algebra first, and then try to work through applying Y-Δ to get a sense of how that works.



              Also, any symmetry in the diagram should be preserved in the values. The second circuit has left-right symmetries, so the currents should be symmetrical: the two top resistors should have the same currents as each other, the two outsides diagonal resistors should have the same as each other, and the two inside diagonal should have the same as each other. So you can use just four variables to represent the nine different currents.






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                3














                For the top one, you can separate out the $9 kOmega$ resistor at the top, since it's in series with the rest. Now you have a graph with four nodes and five edges. You can assign the variables $V_1$ through $V_4$ to the nodes, but WLOG you can consider the top node to be 0 and the bottom to be 1, so that leaves just the left and right voltages. You then have currents $I_1$ through $I_5$ through the edges. You can then start applying the circuit laws to these variables: for each edge, the current is equal to change in voltage divided by the resistance. The net current through each edge is zero (if you take current flowing in to be positive and current flowing out to be negative, that is). You'll then get a bunch of equations, and solving them will give the effective resistances.



                It's probably best to work out what the effective resistances are from basic principles and algebra first, and then try to work through applying Y-Δ to get a sense of how that works.



                Also, any symmetry in the diagram should be preserved in the values. The second circuit has left-right symmetries, so the currents should be symmetrical: the two top resistors should have the same currents as each other, the two outsides diagonal resistors should have the same as each other, and the two inside diagonal should have the same as each other. So you can use just four variables to represent the nine different currents.






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  3












                  3








                  3






                  For the top one, you can separate out the $9 kOmega$ resistor at the top, since it's in series with the rest. Now you have a graph with four nodes and five edges. You can assign the variables $V_1$ through $V_4$ to the nodes, but WLOG you can consider the top node to be 0 and the bottom to be 1, so that leaves just the left and right voltages. You then have currents $I_1$ through $I_5$ through the edges. You can then start applying the circuit laws to these variables: for each edge, the current is equal to change in voltage divided by the resistance. The net current through each edge is zero (if you take current flowing in to be positive and current flowing out to be negative, that is). You'll then get a bunch of equations, and solving them will give the effective resistances.



                  It's probably best to work out what the effective resistances are from basic principles and algebra first, and then try to work through applying Y-Δ to get a sense of how that works.



                  Also, any symmetry in the diagram should be preserved in the values. The second circuit has left-right symmetries, so the currents should be symmetrical: the two top resistors should have the same currents as each other, the two outsides diagonal resistors should have the same as each other, and the two inside diagonal should have the same as each other. So you can use just four variables to represent the nine different currents.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  For the top one, you can separate out the $9 kOmega$ resistor at the top, since it's in series with the rest. Now you have a graph with four nodes and five edges. You can assign the variables $V_1$ through $V_4$ to the nodes, but WLOG you can consider the top node to be 0 and the bottom to be 1, so that leaves just the left and right voltages. You then have currents $I_1$ through $I_5$ through the edges. You can then start applying the circuit laws to these variables: for each edge, the current is equal to change in voltage divided by the resistance. The net current through each edge is zero (if you take current flowing in to be positive and current flowing out to be negative, that is). You'll then get a bunch of equations, and solving them will give the effective resistances.



                  It's probably best to work out what the effective resistances are from basic principles and algebra first, and then try to work through applying Y-Δ to get a sense of how that works.



                  Also, any symmetry in the diagram should be preserved in the values. The second circuit has left-right symmetries, so the currents should be symmetrical: the two top resistors should have the same currents as each other, the two outsides diagonal resistors should have the same as each other, and the two inside diagonal should have the same as each other. So you can use just four variables to represent the nine different currents.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 1 hour ago









                  AcccumulationAcccumulation

                  1,866210




                  1,866210























                      2














                      As Pietro Oliva (is there a way to mention a user?) pointed out, I have to use the Y-Δ transformations to change how the circuit is viewed.



                      Thanks for the super fast answer!






                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.














                      • 1




                        I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
                        – G. Smith
                        2 hours ago








                      • 1




                        I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
                        – Groctel
                        2 hours ago






                      • 2




                        Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
                        – G. Smith
                        1 hour ago








                      • 2




                        Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
                        – my2cts
                        44 mins ago










                      • @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
                        – David Z
                        32 mins ago
















                      2














                      As Pietro Oliva (is there a way to mention a user?) pointed out, I have to use the Y-Δ transformations to change how the circuit is viewed.



                      Thanks for the super fast answer!






                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.














                      • 1




                        I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
                        – G. Smith
                        2 hours ago








                      • 1




                        I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
                        – Groctel
                        2 hours ago






                      • 2




                        Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
                        – G. Smith
                        1 hour ago








                      • 2




                        Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
                        – my2cts
                        44 mins ago










                      • @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
                        – David Z
                        32 mins ago














                      2












                      2








                      2






                      As Pietro Oliva (is there a way to mention a user?) pointed out, I have to use the Y-Δ transformations to change how the circuit is viewed.



                      Thanks for the super fast answer!






                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      As Pietro Oliva (is there a way to mention a user?) pointed out, I have to use the Y-Δ transformations to change how the circuit is viewed.



                      Thanks for the super fast answer!







                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      New contributor




                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer






                      New contributor




                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      answered 2 hours ago









                      GroctelGroctel

                      485




                      485




                      New contributor




                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.





                      New contributor





                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.






                      Groctel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.








                      • 1




                        I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
                        – G. Smith
                        2 hours ago








                      • 1




                        I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
                        – Groctel
                        2 hours ago






                      • 2




                        Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
                        – G. Smith
                        1 hour ago








                      • 2




                        Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
                        – my2cts
                        44 mins ago










                      • @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
                        – David Z
                        32 mins ago














                      • 1




                        I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
                        – G. Smith
                        2 hours ago








                      • 1




                        I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
                        – Groctel
                        2 hours ago






                      • 2




                        Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
                        – G. Smith
                        1 hour ago








                      • 2




                        Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
                        – my2cts
                        44 mins ago










                      • @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
                        – David Z
                        32 mins ago








                      1




                      1




                      I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
                      – G. Smith
                      2 hours ago






                      I doubt that your teacher expects you to know about this obscure transformation. You should be able to solve both problems just by using Kirchoff’s circuit laws.
                      – G. Smith
                      2 hours ago






                      1




                      1




                      I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
                      – Groctel
                      2 hours ago




                      I've only studied Kirchoff's laws for voltage and intensity. How do I apply them in this type of circuit?
                      – Groctel
                      2 hours ago




                      2




                      2




                      Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
                      – G. Smith
                      1 hour ago






                      Assign an unknown current ($I_1$, $I_2$, etc.) to each wire. Write down Kirchoff’s equations for each node and each loop. Solve for all the currents.
                      – G. Smith
                      1 hour ago






                      2




                      2




                      Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
                      – my2cts
                      44 mins ago




                      Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful. - From Review
                      – my2cts
                      44 mins ago












                      @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
                      – David Z
                      32 mins ago




                      @Groctel This doesn't appear to add anything to Pietro's answer. Did you mean to include something besides what's in his answer? If not, I think it would be appropriate to delete this.
                      – David Z
                      32 mins ago










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